Blue is Me

Tag: teammates

  • Who had more help in their career, LeBron James or Kobe Bryant?

    Instead of counting # of all stars and top 75 players like a casual nba fan would (since they don’t need to actually do any research to do that) let’s actually break down the production for each of their teammates. I’m going to look at the championship years for each player’s starting teammates. I’ve highlighted their best teammate in bold.

    Kobe’s teammates – 2000 playoffs
    Shaq – 31 PPG / 15 RPG / 3 APG / 56%
    Glen Rice – 12 PPG / 4 RPG / 2 APG / 41%
    Ron Harper – 9 PPG / 4 RPG / 3 APG / 43%
    Robert Horry – 8 PPG / 5 RPG / 3 APG / 41%

    Kobe’s teammates – 2001 playoffs
    Shaq – 30 PPG / 15 RPG / 3 APG / 55%
    Derek Fisher – 13 PPG / 4 RPG / 3 APG / 48%
    Rick Fox – 10 PPG / 5 RPG / 4 APG / 45%
    Horace Grant – 6 PPG / 6 RPG / 1 APG / 39%

    Kobe’s teammates – 2002 playoffs
    Shaq – 29 PPG / 13 RPG / 3 APG / 53%
    Robert Horry – 9 PPG / 8 RPG / 3 APG / 45%
    Rick Fox – 10 PPG / 5 RPG / 3 APG / 48%
    Derek Fisher – 10 PPG / 3 RPG / 3 APG / 36%

    Kobe’s teammates – 2009 playoffs
    Pau Gasol – 18 PPG / 11 RPG / 3 APG / 58%
    Lamar Odom – 12 PPG / 9 RPG / 2 APG / 52%
    Trevor Ariza – 11 PPG / 4 RPG / 2 APG / 50%
    Derek Fisher – 8 PPG / 2 RPG / 2 APG / 39%

    Kobe’s teammates – 2010 playoffs
    Pau Gasol – 20 PPG / 11 RPG / 3 APG / 54%
    Lamar Odom – 10 PPG / 9 RPG / 2 APG / 47%
    Metta World Peace – 11 PPG / 4 RPG / 2 APG / 40%
    Derek Fisher – 10 PPG / 3 RPG / 3 APG / 45%

    Lebron’s teammates – 2012 playoffs
    Dwayne Wade – 23 PPG / 5 RPG / 4 APG / 46%
    Chris Bosh – 14 PPG / 8 RPG / 1 APG / 49%
    Mario Chalmers – 11 PPG / 4 RPG / 4 APG / 44%
    Shane Battier – 7 PPG / 3 RPG / 1 APG / 38%

    Lebron’s teammates – 2013 playoffs
    Dwayne Wade – 16 PPG / 5 RPG / 5 APG / 46%
    Chris Bosh – 12 PPG / 7 RPG / 1 APG / 46%
    Mario Chalmers – 10 PPG / 2 RPG / 3 APG / 41%
    Ray Allen – 10 PPG / 3 RPG / 1 APG / 43%

    Lebron’s teammates – 2016 playoffs
    Kyrie Irving – 25 PPG / 3 RPG / 5 APG / 47%
    Kevin Love – 15 PPG / 9 RPG / 2 APG / 38%
    JR Smith – 12 PPG / 3 RPG / 1 APG / 44%
    Tristan Thompson – 7 PPG / 9 RPG / 1 APG / 53%

    Lebron’s teammates – 2020 playoffs
    Anthony Davis – 28 PPG / 10 RPG / 3 APG / 57%
    Kentavious Caldwell-Pope – 11 PPG / 2 RPG / 1 APG / 42%
    Danny Green – 8 PPG / 3 RPG / 1 APG / 35%
    Rajon Rondo – 9 PPG / 4 RPG / 7 APG / 45%

    In order of the best statlines from the 9 total playoffs…
    1. 2000 Shaq
    2. 2001 Shaq
    3. 2002 Shaq
    4. 2020 AD
    5. 2016 Kyrie
    6. 2010 Gasol
    7. 2012 Wade
    8. 2009 Gasol
    9. 2013 Wade

    So I would say 2000–2002 Kobe had the most help. Then 2020 Lebron, 2016 Lebron, 2010 Kobe, 2012 Lebron, 2009 Kobe and 2013 Lebron in that order. I don’t think people realize how much that 2013 Heat was propped up by Lebron. It wasn’t really a superteam. Wade averaging 16, Bosh averaging 12 and Allen averaging 10? What kind of superteam was that?

  • Who had more talented teammates over the course of their career, Kobe Bryant or LeBron James?

    Lebron has had more talented teammates, but Kobe has had them for more of their primes.

    The thing people never realize when they accuse Lebron of ‘teaming up’ with superstars is how many of them were actually in their prime and how many of them were real definitive superstars. Let’s go down the list.

    Lebron had:
    Dwayne Wade – top 35 player (top 2 SG in the league at the time) – 2 years of prime (2011–2012)
    Chris Bosh – top 100 player (top 8 PF in the league at the time) – 4 years of prime (2011–2014)
    Kyrie Irving – top 100 player (top 5 PG in the league at the time) – 3 years of prime (2015–2017)
    Kevin Love – top 150 player (top 5 PF in the league at the time) – 4 years of prime (2015–2018)
    Anthony Davis – top 60 player (top 2 PF in the league at the time) – 1 year of prime (2020)

    Kobe had:
    Shaquille O’Neal – top 12 player (#1 C in the league at the time) – 7 years of prime (1997–2004)
    Pau Gasol – top 80 player (top 5 PF in the league at the time) – 6 years of prime (2008–2014)
    Dwight Howard – top 50 player (top 2 C in the league at the time) – 1 year of prime (2013)

    It’s true that Kobe has basically only played with just 2 all-stars in their primes … but he had their primes for a total of 13 years. prime Shaq is better than anyone Lebron has ever played with, and only Wade and AD can be considered truly better than Gasol as a player. Lebron got a total of 3 years of prime Wade + AD put together.

  • Why do people say Lebron makes his teammates better when every star that joins him sees their stats go down?

    This is another Lebron hater myth I will debunk. I have debunked many already (he played in a weak East, had lots of help, wasn’t clutch, wasn’t a good defender etc)

    The thing about this narrative is that just like the other myths, it comes from haters who don’t really understand how basketball works. When a superstar joins another superstar, especially as a third option, they will see their stats go down. This is common sense and obvious. They don’t get as many touches with the ball, and they might even see their playing time decrease.

    So the haters say stuff like well look at Bosh and look at Love they went from 25 PPG+ to 18 PPG. That’s proof Lebron makes his teammates worse!

    Ok, well look at this.
    2014 Kyrie (no Lebron): 21 PPG
    2017 Kyrie (with Lebron): 27 PPG
    2010 Wade (no Lebron): 26 PPG
    2011 Wade (with Lebron): 26 PPG
    2019 AD (no Lebron): 28 PPG
    2020 AD (with Lebron): 26 PPG

    Ok.. so as you can see, with secondary option guys, it’s simply not true and we know this because usually if a guy joins as a secondary option they can still reasonably maintain their stats. Pippen with and without Jordan is roughly the same. Gasol maintained his stats when he joined Kobe. KD kept his production up when he joined Curry’s Warriors. If we go even back further, when Jerry West became a superstar, Elgin Baylor’s stats were roughly the same.

    BUT for third scoring options, they will definitely see their stats decrease because they have to now share with not one but TWO other superstar players. So yes that’s the reason why Bosh and Love’s stats took a BIG hit. It’s not because they played with Lebron, that’s just the nature of joining a team with 2 other stars on it! Here’s some more proof of that fact:

    2007 Ray Allen – 26 PPG
    2008 Ray Allen (after joining Celtics superteam) – 18 PPG
    2003 Payton – 21 PPG
    2004 Payton (after joining Lakers superteam) – 15 PPG
    2012 Dwight – 21 PPG
    2013 Dwight (after joining Lakers superteam) – 17 PPG
    1968 Wilt – 24 PPG
    1969 Wilt (after joining Lakers superteam) – 20 PPG
    1986 Dantley – 29 PPG
    1987 Dantley (after joining Bad Boy Pistons) – 21 PPG
    1996 Barkley – 23 PPG
    1997 Barkley (after joining Rockets superteam) – 19 PPG

    so.. can we say that Pierce, Kobe, Shaq, West, Isiah and Hakeem all made their teammates worse from this logic? No, of course not. And don’t tell me all these guys were old and past their prime either, their bodies didn’t just suddenly age RIGHT when they join a new team. Cmon now.

    This is why Lebron haters lack any kind of basketball knowledge. It’s common sense that a third option sees their stats decrease. Instead, they find a way to blame it on Lebron.

  • Which player has had more talented teammates over the course of their career, LeBron James or Kevin Durant?

    So we can’t just do the casual thing here by listing names of the all star or HoF teammates each played with, we have to account for primes and injuries.

    So Lebron’s healthy / prime all star teammates:

    -2011-2013 D-wade (Wade was injured 2014)
    -2011-2014 Bosh
    -2016–2017 Kyrie (Kyrie was injured 2015)
    -2016–2018 Love (Love was injured 2015)
    -2020 AD

    KD’s healthy / prime all star teammates

    2011–2016 Westbrook
    2017–2019 Curry
    2017–2019 Draymond
    2017–2019 Klay
    2022 Kyrie (Harden and Kyrie were injured 2021)

    Overall taking teammate health and prime into consideration, KD’s run with the Warriors (2017–2019) he had probably the most talented teammates with Curry/Draymond/Klay all in their prime and healthy during that time. I would say that roster is more stacked than the 2011-2013 Heat, the 2016–2017 Cavs and the 2020 Lakers which are the only times Lebron had fully healthy all star teammates. Bron’s best teammate is either 2011 Wade or 2020 AD, and both of them are a notch below 2017–2019 Curry I think

  • Does Lebron really make the players around him better?

    Yes. This shouldn’t even be a debate, for people who actually watch Lebron play and know basketball it’s not even questionable.

    It usually revolves around the fact that whenever a star player joins Lebron their stats always drop and casuals use this as their argument. Because Lebron is ball dominant and he orchestrates the offense, this isn’t surprising as any star who is going to defer to Lebron will see their stats drop. However, because Lebron is an otherworldy talent, this always results in the team winning more because as that player transitions into a lesser role they are able to get better looks as a result of Lebron and benefit from Lebron’s better passing and court vision. As a result they increase their efficiency and FG% and of course that helps the team win more (less misses, less chances for the other team to get the ball, I mean its obvious but some basketball fans are so dumb they don’t think FG% matters).

    There’s statistical evidence to back this up; Wade’s best FG% season? 2014. Bosh’s best FG% season? 2013. Love’s best FG% season? 2018. These all align with the years they played with Lebron.

    Also, it’s interesting to note that Lebron’s teams won despite the fact that he didn’t necessarily fit the best with him. Wade for example, was a redundant since he wasn’t a shooter and Lebron did the same things Wade could do near the basket, except better. That’s why the Heat ironically had a better record with ONLY Lebron and without Wade. In Kyrie’s case, he didn’t have any chemistry with Lebron whatsoever and yet they still won. This just goes to show Lebron’s ability to make his teams great regardless of the system or coach or roster. (of course this year Westbrook is an exception but then again Lebron’s also 37 and the rest of his team isn’t that good).

    Also, just take a look at what Lebron has done for his teams

    First of all let’s look at his first stint with the Cavs:

    In 2006, 21 year old Lebron took the Cavs to 7 games against the 64 win Detroit Pistons. His second best player that series Zydrunas Ilgauskas averaged 11 PPG. Do you really think that if you take Lebron off this team, they go 7 games? Zydrunas will increase his output for sure, but will they go 7 games? I think not

    In 2007, 22 year old Lebron took the Cavs to the NBA Finals against the Spurs. Sure, they got swept, but do you think they are going to that Finals with Larry Hughes as their main scorer? Take Lebron off that team and they go nowhere.

    In 2010, Lebron’s Cavs won 61 games and lose to the Celtics. Lebron leaves the Cavs the next season. They drop to 19 wins. That’s a 40+ win difference and the only major roster changes is Lebron and Delonte West leaving the team. They still have their other main starters Mo Williams, Antawn Jamison, Anderson Varajeo, Anthony Parker etc

    In 2015, Lebron leaves the Heat and they go from a Finals team to not making the playoffs. Fans blame this on Bosh being out for half the season and Wade being old and injured but news flash: They aren’t making the Finals even if those two guys were healthy for the whole season. Sorry to break it to you haters. And Lebron was playing with that same old injured Wade and carrying him to the Finals in 2014.

    In 2019, Lebron leaves the Cavs and they once again go from a Finals team to being a lottery team. If Lebron makes his teammates worse, you’d think this wouldn’t keep happening right? They still have on the team: Kevin Love, JR Smith, Rodney Hood, Larry Nance Jr, Matthew Delladova, Tristan Thompson etc all from the 2018 team. So they have most of the same guys but went from the Finals to the lottery. Interesting.

    So you have this mountain of evidence that Lebron impacts his team more than any other player, and the fact that so many fans still think he makes his teammates worse or whatever infuriates me. If Lebron made his teammates worse, wouldn’t you think his teams would be doing pretty well without him? Why do they always become a lottery team when he leaves despite having pretty much the same roster?

    and let’s talk about the 2022 Lakers cause Lebron haters tell me all the time how if hes the GOAT he should be fixing this roster. First thing is first, the Lakers were 8–18 without Lebron and 25–31 with him. Yes, even with him they are not a 0.500 team, but without him they are basically garbage and can’t beat the worst teams in the league. And yes Lebron is not playing defense but the guy is 37 years old and averaging 30 PPG. I don’t know any other player in NBA history who was excelling on both ends of the court at 37 years old. Yes I know Kareem and Duncan won championships at this age but they weren’t their teams main option at this point in their careers, and Lebron still is. And yes, the Lakers are just that bad. Westbrook is a turnover machine and doesn’t seem to care about winning, AD was injured half the season and even when not injured his game has regressed, and their next best players are Malik Monk, old Melo and Talen Horton Tucker. Yes I know they won 33 games. But without Lebron, this team would have had the worst record in the league.