Blue is Me

Tag: chris paul

  • Who is the greatest NBA player who has never been the best basketball player in the world?

    Define best basketball player in the world. Usually when a player wins MVP they are considered top in the league. When a player wins FMVP there could be arguments they are the best player in the world – they just won a championship while being their teams best player. So then I suppose my answer is who is the greatest basketball player who has never won MVP or FMVP?

    I’ll probably have to go with CP3. I personally have him ahead of other contenders like John Stockton, Jason Kidd and Walt Frazier. He’s an all time leader, all time passer, great shooter, great defender, made every team he’s on better, and yet he’s never won either MVP or a championship, due to a variety of circumstances some of them bad luck some of them were indeed chokejobs. Still, I think very highly of him and I think he deserved at least 1 MVP during his career for how much he’s uplifted his teams.

  • Who was the better NBA Point Guard: Chris Paul or John Stockton?

    Chris Paul.

    John Stockton only really has one thing on CP3 which is longevity. And Stockton honestly has that over EVERY point guard. Stockton was one of the most durable players ever, he was a tough player, and also a dirty player and averaged double digit assists longer than anyone else.

    However, we can’t use longevity purely and say that it means one player was better than the other. By that metric, Mark Jackson could be considered better than Isiah Thomas since he played longer and had more total assists.

    Chris Paul has more All-Star appearances, as many All-NBA teams, and more All-Def teams – this despite playing less seasons than Stockton.

    CP3 led the league in steals a record 6 times – Stockton despite being the all time leader in steals only led in steals twice.

    Stockton leads CP3 in assists and APG – but honestly not by very much considering that he played with Karl Malone almost his whole career. CP3 still manages to have the 4th highest APG all time despite playing with a much more diverse cast than Magic or Stockton or Oscar (the three guys ahead of him). Passing wise I’d say they are fairly close (not looking at raw APG but based on their ability).

    Also, despite CP3 being 3 inches shorter, he averages almost 2 more rebounds than Stockton.

    and of course the obvious one is scoring. CP3 is just a better scorer and shot creator, period. Stockton and CP3 are about the same when it comes to shooting efficiency – but Stockton was never a go to offensive player. Both Stockton and CP3 have hit memorable clutch shots (Stockton’s buzzer beater vs the Rockets in 1997 and CP3’s Game 7 buzzer vs the Spurs in 2015) but you couldn’t rely on Stockton to consistently create those shots or to lead a team to victory the way CP3 has.

    Stockton would routinely get his ass handed to him on one on one matchups by much quicker dynamic PGs like Isiah Thomas, Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway and Mark Price.

    CP3’s finest performance came just this last playoffs versus his former team the Clippers in a masterpiece Game 6 performance. What’s amazing about all of CP3’s performances is that he does this while having little to no turnovers – he’s second all time in assist/turnover ratio, which is why he is often referred to as the Point God.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMLP_M0nbFc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wCm_zBDjEo

    Or a 14/14 perfect game.. never seen Stockton do that.

    Neither CP3 or Stockton has a ring – but they both have led their team to Finals. What’s amazing about this is that both of them did this in their mid 30s. Stockton and Malone led their Jazz to the Finals when Stockton was 34 and 35 years old. In both those Finals Stockton averaged only 15 and 10 PPG respectively, and 9 APG in both series.

    Despite everyone criticizing CP3’s play in the 2021 Finals, he had a better Finals series than Stockton ever had, averaging 23/3/9 on 55% shooting – this at 36 years old! Older than even Stockton was. And Devin Booker may be a great scorer but he’s not Karl Malone yet. And for all the talk about CP3 shying away from a shot (which isnt true cause CP3 has lots of clutch moments in his career), Stockton wasn’t even trusted to take those shots in the first place so there’s something to be said there too. CP3’s Finals performance was still better than Stockton’s 2 Finals performances, it’s quite easy to see there.

    Also, there’s something to be said about Stockton playing under a system with a great coach in Jerry Sloan and a great teammate in Karl Malone. CP3 has managed to have the same level of playoff success – with a far more unstable cast of teammates and coaches – which is far harder to do.

    Adding to that – Stockton has never finished higher than #7 in MVP voting – which was in 1989. For comparison, CP3 finished #2 in MVP voting in 2008 and top 6 in 2009, 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2021. So 7 times, CP3 finished higher in MVP voting than Stockton ever did.

    To me, Stockton is just outside my top 5 of PGs – probably #6 all time. While CP3 is definitely in my top 5 and very close with Isiah Thomas and Curry honestly. He would probably be higher if he had a stable cast of great teammates like Isiah and Curry had.

    Edit:

    A lot of people commenting that CP3 had ‘a lot of’ talent and got nothing done and Stockton somehow won ‘more’. Let’s actually debunk this ok?

    CP3 had David West on his Hornets team. He took the Duncan Big 3 Spurs to 7 games with that inferior supporting cast.

    CP3 had Blake Griffin and Deandre Jordan on the Clippers. When they were all heathy, they beat the Curry/Klay/Draymond/Iggy Warriors in 2014 – just one year before they won the championship. In 2015 he beats the defending champ Spurs. Other times either Griffin or CP3 was injured.

    CP3 had James Harden on the Rockets. While he was healthy, he almost beat the super stacked Curry/KD Warriors in 2018. But he got injured and they lost in 7.

    CP3 had basically nobodies on the OKC team he went to in 2020. He took the Westbrook/Harden Rockets to 7 games despite not having anybody else.

    CP3 had Devin Booker and Deandre Ayton on the Suns. He took them from a lottery team to the Finals in 2021 (beat Lebron/AD defending champ Lakers in first round) and lost to Giannis and Middleton Bucks. Shot 55% being guarded by Jrue Holiday a great defender. No shame there.

    What did John Stockton do? His whole career he had Karl Malone a top 3 PF all time and Mark Eaton a 2x DPOY and Jeff Hornacek a former all star Suns player and he kept getting bounced in the playoffs by the Supersonics, Blazers and Rockets until finally the West got weaker and he was able to go to the Finals twice. And still lost.

    CP3 is so disrespected it’s crazy SMH. Everytime he’s had even a little bit of help he’s overachieved with it.

  • Who was better between Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, and Chris Paul?

    Ah yes, the great debate between these 3 amazing all time PGs whose careers all overlapped with each other.

    Let’s go over each player’s merits:

    Jason Kidd:

    -was the only one of these three with a championship on his resume and also the most Finals appearances with 3.

    -Is the best all around player, being one of the best rebounding PGs ever. He was a guaranteed triple double on most nights.

    -Has the most all time assists out of the three.

    Steve Nash:

    -the only one with an MVP out of these three, and in fact TWO MVPs.

    -is the best shooter, averaging a career 49/52/90. That’s incredible.

    Chris Paul:

    -Has the most All-NBA selections, with 11.

    -Has the most steals titles, with 6.

    -Has the best assist to turnover ratio and one of the best all time at protecting the ball.

    -Has the highest APG with 9.4 APG

    -Has the highest PPG with 18.4 PPG

    -Advanced analytics he’s one of the greatest players of all time. He has a WS/48 higher than Lebron and a PER higher than Kareem.

    Both CP3 and Kidd were great defenders, both having 9x All-Def selections

    Both Kidd and Nash have 5 assist titles, compared to 4 for CP3.

    All of these three are all time great top 10 PGs, all great floor generals and high basketball IQ.

    I would probably rank them like this: CP3, then Kidd, then Nash.

    reason is because I feel that CP3 has the best qualities of Kidd and Nash. He was a great shooter like Nash – not quite as good but almost there – and he had the defensive capabilities of Kidd. Like Kidd, he took an unlikely team to the Finals – the 2021 Suns. His playoff resume is hit and miss .. he’s overachieved with teams like the 2008 Hornets, 2020 Thunder, 2021 Suns and almost beat the KD Curry Warriors with the 2018 Rockets. On the other hand, he’s choked as part of the 2015 Clippers and 2022 Suns. Overall though I think his playoff resume looks fairly impressive, at least on the same level as Kidd’s. So because he has some of Kidd’s best qualities and Nash’s best qualities I put CP3 as the best of the three. I also feel he could have gotten MVP in a few years notably 2008 and 2018. I definitely feel that he was more impactful for the Hornets than Kobe was for the Lakers and more impactful for the Rockets than Harden was.

    Then Kidd after that.. because he led a below average Nets team to 2 Finals, won a ring with the Mavs, was a great rebounder and triple double threat and also a great defender, over Nash.

    Then Nash last because.. well honestly I think Nash might have underachieved. Nash himself would probably admit that had he should have taken more 3s like Curry or Klay. He was as good a shooter as Ray Allen and Klay was but he didn’t take them enough. Had he taken more long range shots I think Nash could have easily been the best scorer out of all of them. And sure he was a liability defensively, but so was Curry and Nash is also a better passer than Curry. So I think with the right team, Nash’s career could have been pretty different, but alas as it is.. he will have to settle for third place here, because he’s up against 2 other all time great PGs. As good as those MVPs look, not making the Finals is a huge stain on Nash’s resume unfortunately.

  • Is Chris Paul a better point guard than Isiah Thomas?

    I think Chris Paul is definitely the better player. But Isiah had the better career.

    Isiah had the benefit of playing on a really great team with a bunch of hall of famers like Joe Dumars, Dennis Rodman, Adrian Dantley and all star level players like Bill Laimbeer and Mark Aguirre and great role players like Rick Mahorn and Vinnie Johnson. CP3’s best teammates were Blake Griffin (who was injured half the time) and James Harden (who he only spent 2 seasons with) and Devin Booker who is all star level but not Hall of Fame level yet. That’s hardly equal to the complete Bad Boy Pistons roster Isiah had to work with.

    CP3 is a much better shooter, about the same in rebounding, a slightly better passer not only because higher APG but CP3 has one of the best assist to turnover ratios out of any player ever ( hence the nickname Point GOD), and a better defender too. Also advanced analytics CP3 blows Isiah out of the water in PER, WS/48, VORP and TS% and it’s not even close.

    Isiah might have the advantage in only one category which is his scoring in the clutch. Isiah has the uncanny knack to raise his game when the moments really demanded it. CP3 has a few games like this (like last year he had a 41 pt game to close out the Clippers in the playoffs) but Isiah is probably more consistent at doing this. But thats really the only thing I’ll take from Isiah.

    You remove Isiah and replace him with CP3 on those Pistons teams and they easily win those 2 rings if not more.

  • Would CP3 and Kobe have won a ring together if the NBA didn’t veto the trade?

    A lot of Lakers and Kobe fans believe that had the NBA not veto’d the CP3 trade in 2011, that Kobe and CP3 would have won multiple rings together. David Stern was much reviled by many fans because of this.

    However, would they have won multiple rings together? The evidence actually points more towards no.

    First off, I am a big fan of CP3’s game. I think he deserves to be more respected, and I think in terms of talent, he’s a top 5 PG of all time. It might be an unpopular opinion, but I think he’s a better player than John Stockton and Isiah Thomas, but those players had better overall careers. Literally the only thing CP3 doesn’t have is a ring, and its often due to bad luck and injuries. He arguably should have won a ring in 2018 if he wasn’t injured, and I don’t think losing last years Finals was on him either as his stats were all up from the regular season and he was the most efficient player on his team, just he couldn’t beat prime Giannis. No shame in that. Most people would consider prime Giannis a better player than 36 year old CP3.

    Now, back to whether or not he would have won multiple rings with Kobe. I have doubts that they could have even won a single championship together. Let’s take a look at some reasons why.

    -CP3 trade would have happened during the 2011–2012 season. This was coming off a season where the Lakers disappointed as they were defending champions and got swept by the 2011 Mavs. On the 2012 Lakers you had Kobe nearing the end of his prime (still putting up 28/5/5), Gasol in his prime (putting up 17/10/4) and Andrew Bynum’s best season (putting up 19/12).

    Gasol and Odom are part of the trade package and Gasol still in his prime, so you are losing them as part of the deal. So if you trade away Gasol and Odom, you lose their rebounding and interior presence but instead gain a nice perimeter shooter and an all time floor raiser and distributor on the team. The 2012 Lakers lost in 5 games to OKC who had KD, Westbrook and Ibaka with Harden coming off the bench. I don’t think losing Gasol for CP3 would necessarily help with this matchup. Neither Gasol, CP3 or Kobe could guard KD, and while CP3 is a great perimeter defender and could cause issues for Westbrook, I don’t think it’s enough to turn the tide of this series. Even if they did, are they really beating the 2012 Heatles with Lebron on a vengeance mission? doubtful.

    Moving on to 2013 and onwards well now we are nearing the end of Kobe’s prime, and unless the Lakers make some other big moves. Bynum is not there anymore, and the CP3/Kobe Lakers look very doubtful against the 2013 Heat, and that’s if they are beating the 2013 Spurs who were an amazing team as well and came close to winning it all. 2014 it’s the same story, except the Spurs are even better.

    Also with the Dwight for Bynum trade, we already know Kobe has chemistry issues with Dwight (see: 2013 Lakers). Having CP3 on the roster is not going to magically fix that chemistry issue.
     
    So that’s just assuming that CP3 maintains his regular production that we saw on the Hornets and Clippers. What if he doesn’t? this brings me up to next point.
     
    -Kobe has never been proven to co-exist successfully with another perimeter star. All of Kobe’s success we’ve seen him with either an all time dominant big like Shaq, or a superstar big like Gasol paired up with near all star level bigs like Odom and Bynum.
     
    If you look closely, you’ll notice Kobe’s success co-relates very nicely with the number of big men and rebounders on the team:
     
    2005 season (misses playoffs) – only had Lamar Odom with 10 RPG
     
    2006–2007 season (1st round exit) – in addition to Odom (9 RPG) adds in Kwame Brown (6–7 RPG) along with either Chris Mihm (6 RPG) or Luke Walton (5 RPG)
     
    2008–2010 season (Finals) – adds in Pau Gasol (10 RPG), Andrew Bynum (8 RPG) along with Odom (8 RPG)
     
    So basically you can see that as the quality of big men Kobe plays with increases, the more success Kobe sees. That’s not a coincidence. Kobe is known for being a volume shooter who isn’t particularly efficient. He’s known for not caring about his shot selection that much, and its no coincidence that he saw the most success with Phil Jackson as a coach (who forced him to share the ball more in the triangle) and a team of good rebounders around him.
     
    But Kobe/Lakers fans might say: Kobe never played with a good perimeter star in his career.
    But is that really true?
     
    -1998 Eddie Jones – 17/4/3 – all star -> 1999 Eddie Jones – 14/4/3 (after Kobe promoted to starter)
     
    -2003 Gary Payton – 20/4/8 – all star -> 2004 Gary Payton – 15/4/5 (joined Lakers)
     
    -2012 Steve Nash – 13/3/11 – all star -> 2013 Steve Nash 13/3/7 (joined Lakers)
     
    -2014 Jeremy Lin – 12/3/4 -> 2015 Jeremy Lin 11/3/5 (joined Lakers)
     
    ^ yes I realize all of those cases have ‘explanations’. Still, in addition to Lamar Odom who went from an all around player with the Clippers to being relegated to a spot up rebounder with the Lakers, there’s alot more evidence that perimeter stars have a hard time existing with Kobe than the evidence that says perimeter stars flourish with him.
     
    So as far as the evidence shows, every perimeter star that has played with Kobe has seen their stats decrease slightly from the previous year. Kobe is known to be a ball dominant player. So how would this work with CP3? Using Nash as probably the closest example, CP3 wouldn’t have the ball as much in his hands and would probably see a slight decrease in his scoring and passing. and again even if his stats even stay the same, that’s probably not enough to beat the likes of the 2012 OKC, 2013 Spurs or 2014 Spurs.
     
    So as far as the evidence shows, every perimeter star that has played with Kobe has seen their stats decrease slightly from the previous year. Kobe is known to be a ball dominant player. So how would this work with CP3? Using Nash as probably the closest example, CP3 wouldn’t have the ball as much in his hands and would probably see a slight decrease in his scoring and passing. and again even if his stats even stay the same, that’s probably not enough to beat the likes of the 2012 OKC, 2012 Heatles out for revenge, 2013 Spurs or 2014 Spur
    s.
    As for CP3 succeeding with Devin Booker and James Harden, both of those players are more willing to play their role more so than Kobe (we all know what happened with Shaq and Kobe back in the days where Kobe was more willing to play a role instead of being the alpha dog) and both of those players are also better outside shooters as well. Kobe also isn’t as used to taking a pick and pop or catch and shoot role as much as modern players do as well. Harden in addition also has legit PG skills whereas Kobe is a pure SG.

    So we have all the evidence in the world to suggest that Kobe’s game worked the best with dominant big men rather than with another perimeter star. So it’s highly unlikely that Kobe would have won a championship with CP3 let alone multiple championships.

  • Is Dwight Howard one of the most disrespected players of all time?

    all time is a bit rough. I think if we look all time, George Mikan is somehow missing from top 10 most influential lists despite being the key reason why the goaltending and shot clock rules exist, and widened lanes exist. And oh yeah, he introduced the 3pt line as ABA commissioner.

    Not having George Mikan in the top 15 most influential players of all time is just disgusting. Or Bob Cousy for that matter. Guys who paved the way for basketball as a sport to develop. This looks like more of a list of the top 15 most popular players of all time rather than most influential.

    Might I add, Rick Barry for free agency rules, Spencer Haywood for letting players go to the NBA early from college (before it was always 4 years of college), Oscar Robertson for raising player salaries. Yao Ming for bringing over a billion fans from China and increasing NBA revenues. What rule changes did Kobe or Lebron cause? Iverson is on there because of the hip hop influence? Cmon now.

    Then there’s guys like Artis Gilmore, Mel Daniels, Connie Hawkins etc who are disrespected because ABA awards aren’t counted.

    But for modern players, I think it has to be Dwight Howard and Chris Paul.

    Why are these guys so disrespected? because they are unpopular.

    Dwight is unpopular because he played with Kobe and Kobe didn’t like how soft he was and he didn’t take the game seriously, and because Kobe has the biggest fanbase in basketball, whichever player he turns against is instantly hated and reviled. Since Dwight’s 2013 Lakers stint, his reputation has declined until he rejoined the Lakers and got back into shape, but he’s still known for a ‘goofy’ reputation.

    He’s an 8x All-star, 3x DPOY, 8x All-NBA, 5x rebounding leader and somehow missed the NBA’s top 75 list. He took a team that nobody expected to be in the Finals to the Finals. That’s disrespectful. Sure the guy didn’t develop his game that much, but he has a body of work that is most certainly top 75 all time.

    with Chris Paul, it’s more that he is underappreciated for his body of work. Just like with a lot of Lebron myths, there is a perception that CP3 is a choker, and that’s proliferated by all the talking heads talking about his 2015 meltdown in the playoffs versus the Rockets. It’s kind of like how Lebron is seen as a choker based on one playoff series – the 2011 Finals. One playoff series does not make a player’s career.

    CP3 has consistently made every team he was on better, and either due to injuries to himself or his teammates, he hasn’t been able to win a championship. But we’ve seen from the Hornets (took the Spurs to 7 games. The Hornets! cmon) to the Clippers (where he beat the Warriors in 2014) to OKC (took the Westbrook/Harden Rockets to 7 games with no other star on his roster) to the Rockets (where he was an injury away from beating the Curry/KD Warriors) to the Suns (where he led a team with Devin Booker and Deandre Ayton to the Finals shocking everybody), he makes every team he’s on better. His 2021 Finals performance was actually much better than Curry’s 2016 Finals performance and yet he was criticized endlessly online for not being aggressive enough. He’s 36 years old and took a team that was never expected to be in the Finals, to the Finals.

    I see people online always saying he’s overrated because they just don’t like him. There’s no evidence of CP3 being overrated at all in fact he’s underrated because he’s unpopular. I got banned from a Facebook group for disagreeing with a post that said that CP3 is not top 75 all time. Shows you how much CP3 is hated.